Elizabeth
Hello, this is Elizabeth kidney. I'm interviewing my grandfather for my thesis project. Can you state your full name?
Patrick
Padraig O’ Nualain
Elizabeth
Awesome. And can you state your full name in English?
Patrick
Patrick Nolan. Here we go.
Elizabeth
OK, so I have a couple of questions for you. So what do you define storytelling as?
Patrick
Well, a group of people sitting around the bonfire telling stories.
Elizabeth
Group of people, OK.
Patrick
Usually in Ireland, it was. Around the Watchmen. Barrels of fire and stuff like that. And then the knackers the gypsies. They were the great storytellers. One village to the next, to the next. They they told a lot of great stories and it was turned into Irish music.
Elizabeth
OK. OK. So would you say that everything was oral, it was oral literature, it was passed around verbally, OK? And how would you define folklore? What is folklore to you?
Patrick
Folklore would be in the local villages. The local people, they're the ones that. Spread the word from place to place, village to village.
Elizabeth
OK, so just people sharing people, sharing the stories.
Patrick
You know. In general. The stories some of them true. Some of them are made-up.
Elizabeth
So OK, so some truth, some made-up.
Patrick
Like the ones about the leprechauns.
Elizabeth
So are the leprechauns fake or are they real?
Patrick
They real and then you have to go over there and ask them.
Elizabeth
All right, what kind of superstitions or folklore, or fake stories or supernatural stories, did you hear growing up?
Patrick
Oh lots. Lots of stories about banshees, stories about ghosts in the villages. White ladies.
Elizabeth
White ladies?
Patrick
Yeah, you see them and they would be seen in the villages. All in white.
Elizabeth
Okay, so what were some of your favorite, if any, Irish folklore stories or fictional stories growing up?
Patrick
There was one in the village where I lived. They said there was a. There was a lake there called Johnny's lip. And they said a woman was crossing down on her horse and she fell off and drowned. Got killed. But now the villagers go by there at night, and they would see her racing across the railroad tracks and down into the lake.
Elizabeth
That's quite the story. So would you say that's more of like an urban legend? Or is it just depends village to village?
Patrick
To village that was a village.
Elizabeth
Village folklore, OK.
Patrick
Village folklore.
Elizabeth
OK. What is your understanding of Irish folklore, what does it look like to you, besides being village to village? Does it involve stories about history? Does it recount, you know, familial stories, cultural stories?
Patrick
A lot of it is history. And of course, it depends on who's telling these. Some of them are just made up as they went along. As they were telling you the story, the back of the mind was made, bringing it forward and making it up. You know what? I'm saying so.
Elizabeth
People would, would they add things into stories?
Patrick
Yes, they would, or change that makes it more real.
Elizabeth
Pint of beer, what does a pint of beer make?
Patrick
It was more real, you get better stories with more pints.
Elizabeth
OK, so a huge part of folklore and storytelling then is the Guinness with it?
Patrick
You bring out the Guinness, they'll bring out the stories.
Elizabeth
So how common was it for those around you to reference certain stories or folklore like banshees and leprechauns, ghosts?
Patrick
Well, with me, most of it was amongst the young kids and teenagers, OK. And we'd make them even more scary than they were. OK. But they all scared us when we were little. All of all of those stories.
Elizabeth
So most of the the stories are the folklore that you heard and were they darker then? They weren't as happy-go-lucky?
Patrick.
No. No, a lot of them are dark or scary stuff. Purposely, to keep us chiselers out of trouble. You know what a chisler is? Don't you know?
Elizabeth
No. What's a Chiseler?
Patrick
Young kids were called Chiselers. Boys.Young boys specifically.
Elizabeth
So troublemakers like you?
Patrick
Ah Jeez, you would know.
Elizabeth
So was there, would you say, there's a difference between the stories that older people would tell versus younger people?
Patrick
No, we listen to a lot of stories. From the older people. Because I've forgotten a lot of them now. Over the years. But those stories were told. The knackers would bring stories into town, into the village, or on the side of the road. They set up their little fireplace instead, of cooking. And as the day wore on and started getting dark. People sit around those fires listening to the stories. And then. A lot of the tinkers are knackers. They were good musicians, and they produced a lot of good Irish music. Some of them became famous.
Elizabeth
A lot of them did.
Patrick
Quite a few of them.
Elizabeth
So, would you say music is a pretty important part then of Irish storytelling? It's part of the culture. And can you define a tinker or a knacker?
Patrick
Ohh yes.
Elizabeth
Just for the audience?
Patrick
They're both the same, but. The tinkers were, I'd say, a little bit above the knacker. Usually, the knackers had a hundred kids running around the tree there and they weren't as clean as the regular gypsies.
Elizabeth
OK. So just different kinds of families, different large families, more kids.
Patrick
Yeah, different families.
Elizabeth
Different social status, basically?
Patrick
But they went by their horses. How many horses they had.
Elizabeth
OK. So that was also their own, their social strata, they also defined themselves by how many horses or how many kids they had.
Patrick
Yeah. They weren't always on the up. And up. Because you didn't leave your clothes out on the line when the knackers went down. Or they'd have new suits to wear the next thing.
Elizabeth
That's a story in and of itself, yeah. OK, so how do you think that Irish folklore? Has it affected Irish culture and storytelling? What do you think the relationship is there?
Patrick
Ohh it's it's great. I mean it's it's. Everybody loves it, you know they love the Irish tails. And it's it's been very good for the overall. Country in itself, with people looking up to it and loving it. You know. Brought them out into the world, those knackers.
Elizabeth
So do you. Did you ever hear any stories of the children of Lear or anything like that growing up you didn't know?
Patrick
I didn't. I think I do remember that. Read something about it, but I can't remember.
Elizabeth
OK. So the stories that you heard were mostly localized. You didn't always hear stories you know from, like other counties. Or things like that?
Patrick
Will not unless somebody from that county comes in the village I lived in. Yeah.
Elizabeth
So if you wanted to hear, you know, stories from anywhere else or a different part of the country, you would have to come from somebody that was passing through?
Patrick
Yeah, they would, yeah. They brought their great stories and music with them. They were great fiddlers to gypsies. They loved the violins and the fiddles. And squeeze box accordions, things like that, tambourines, tambourines. And they were good. I've got, I can look up the Internet and show you some of them all. Gypsy musicians.
Elizabeth
We'll have to do that. We'll have to do that as part of the project. To what extent do you think Irish folklore is reflective of Irish culture? If the Gypsies are primarily the ones that are telling the stories? Besides, in the pubs, do you think it's reflective of Irish culture?
Patrick
Right. The gypsy stories. The Gypsies went to the pubs too, OK. They go in the pubs and spill their stories, especially if they give them another pint. That's what they wanted. Yeah, they'd have a pint in one hand and the other hand would be in your pocket if you were close enough.
Elizabeth
That's great craic. It's craic.
Patrick
When they all get together, gaping about stuff, gaps. That's a gap session.
Elizabeth
So how often did you ever read stories, or was it just all purely by word of mouth?
Patrick
Word of mouth and listening to other people or other kids. I didn't have much of my own. Sometimes on the farm when we go out to the farm. We had what we called the Farmyard lodge, where the worker state lived. They'd sit around their fireplace. Telling stories and playing music and stuff like that.
Elizabeth
Just like the knackers, just like the knackers. So did you ever hear any stories about Finn and the Fianna? Were those also stories that were told around the fire?
Patrick
Yeah, Finn and beyond. Forgot what that is about. Too much for me. No, can't remember that.
Patrick
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We hear stories about them. But in my generation it was. I don't know. We were all farm workers in that so. The stories we got were passed down from 1 farmer to the next.
Elizabeth
OK. And like we said, it's more regional base then, OK. Do you think that cultural stereotypes are reflected in? Folklore and storytelling, for example, do you think that stereotypes about the gypsies or stereotypes about the Irish? Are deeply reflected in Irish storytelling?
Patrick
Yeah, a lot of it definitely.
Elizabeth
Right, do you think that Irish folklore plays an impact, an important part and shows impact on how people view the Irish and Irish culture?
Patrick
Oh yes.
Elizabeth
You know, say somebody from the United States. Hearing you know about Irish stories, would you think that it has a big part in it overall?
Patrick
Depending on the story, I often wonder what the reaction is. If you're telling them stories about the leprechaun. Or the Fairy rings.
Elizabeth
Fairy rings, the fairy rings. Well, tell us a little bit about the fairy rings.
Patrick
They were just little rings. That some of them were big. That they claim the fairies made and rather than go across that ring, they’d build the road around it.
Elizabeth
Ohh, so there were literally places where they would actively-
Patrick
Oh yes.
Elizabeth
OK. So are there other instances of things like that besides fairy rings or are there like hills and stuff that?
Patrick
Yeah, there's all kinds of little things like that. Trees, trees, fairy trees.
Elizabeth
Tell them about fairy trees. What are they?
Patrick
It was just the tree and they, the fairies, they went in underneath it. There was always a way in and for them to go in and hide. And repair the shoes. That's your shoes. They’d take them and take them in there and repair and put them back for you.
Elizabeth
OK. That's different. So what about all the fairies shoemakers?
Patrick
They were all shoemakers. They were mostly shoemakers, yeah.
Elizabeth
OK. Did any of these stories about leprechauns have any, you know, ties to physical places? Things like that?
Patrick
Places, but I don't remember the names of mine. Been too long for me. Have you seen Darby O'gill and? The little people.
Elizabeth
Yes, I’ve seen Darby O’Gill and King Brian of the little people, yes.
Patrick
There you go.
Elizabeth
So what did you love most about growing up in Ireland?
Patrick
I love every single minute of it. But the most, the most. It was all good. Good, not no bad. No bad. I don't remember me having any bad, except maybe when I got hurt in the river or something. All right, but they were simpler times. We were running around in farm fields. Rivers and fog, woods and stuff like that. Castles. I've been, that's another thing. I've been in the dungeons of a castle.
Elizabeth
Oh, tell us about that. Tell us. Tell us about that.
Patrick
And that was the Milltown Castle that was across the river from our house. They claimed. I don't know that. From White Castle. There was a tunnel. Down underneath the river, back up and into the convent. What connection that had? What did they bring in there? What connection that had, are they brought in the monks or priest that way if they were if they were trying to chastise somebody with the dungeons but the dungeons weren't just cells with iron bars, chains on the walls, a trough run through it really for urine and feces and and and everything was gates locked and where it would flow out into the river. But they didn’t treat people very nicely in their places. And that dungeon started, the way up into the castle, which we never went far enough. We were scared. People see you over there. They start making all kinds of weird sounds and noises, get you out of here.
Elizabeth
Were there any urban legends about the castle?
Patrick
No towns. Also no. That one castle. I'm. I'd have to talk to Gordon because he's the one who told me that we belong to the Stonewall Jackson. Their family owned it at one time. I believe it was Stonewall Jackson. One of your southern. One of your southern officers.
Elizabeth
They owned it. Wow.
Patrick
And they were integrated over here in the 16th or 17th. Something like that. That was Milltown Castle. It's a hotel now, I think.
Elizabeth
That's interesting. I never would have guessed that that had ties to America. OK so. Let's see. Would you say that Irish storytelling is part of the wider Irish heritage and culture, not just by storytelling, but also by music, poetry, and writing?
Patrick
Pretty much so.
Elizabeth
Would you say that Irish storytelling is part of the wider Irish heritage and culture, not just by storytelling, but also music poetry writing? How impactful do you think the arts are then? Just what do you personally feel like?
Patrick
Fairy tale? What percentage? Well, what what?
Elizabeth
Just what do you personally feel.
Patrick
I think it has a great impact on it. Big impact on it.
Elizabeth
Do you think that writing and poetry have more impact, or do you think music is?
Patrick
Writing, writing, and poetry is big too. Very big. If you have time to sit down and study. It listen to it. I used to know quite a few Irish bones. Forgotten them all. The one property boy is the one I. There as a kid and they can't find it anywhere now and I can't. Remember it was.
What was the probably good men and true in this House, who dwell to a stranger? Booker, I pray you tell. Is the priest at home, father and may be seen. I would speak a word with Father Green. The youth is entered for a lonely hall. What a lonely sound as loud as his light footballs. Bless me, Father, for I have sinned. It's been a week since my last confession.
And anyway, it goes on to say.
With a laughing noise made you look up in a wild surprise. Dear sat British captain. Upon young rivers, we tend the floats. The priests in one if he's not dead. And he was, for the IRA, but they caught it.
Elizabeth
I never heard that one before, no.
Patrick
But it's not. I'm not, not at all that I've lost a lot of it. But poetry is great. Now. I loved poetry and I had some more around here. I was. I had a book on Irish poetry. I may still have it up there.
Elizabeth
We can look for it.
Patrick
But that one's not in it.
Elizabeth
So that's one you just pulled from memory. That's awesome.
Patrick
We said it in school or they were beating it into us.
Elizabeth
Oh, I'm sure you got it quite a-
Patrick
Quite a bit? Yeah, yeah.
Elizabeth
How do you think that storytelling and folklore have affected your perceptions of the world and your culture?
Patrick
Read that again?
Elizabeth
How did folklore or stories that you were told when you were younger affect your perceptions of the world and of your culture?
Patrick
Well, the world turned out to be a very different place.
Elizabeth
Very different.
Patrick
They want some of those stories said. You know. That's about it.
Elizabeth
Did Uncle Gordon ever tell you stories, things like that?
Patrick
No, he he wasn't there. He didn't tell stories my dad used to tell us stories. My mom didn't tell me any of them. But my dad did. Because you. He had nothing but a radio back in those days. And I remember, and we were the families that every night we kneel down and say the rosary. Every one of us in the family. It means somewhere up against the chair tables. To the rules what you said.
Elizabeth
That was every night?
Patrick
Every night. And when you get up into your teen years, you want out of that.
Elizabeth
And that's when you find yourself in the pub, telling the stories. With the gypsy, then?
Patrick
That's when you're telling stories and then not all. There's truth.
Elizabeth
No, you're right. Right. Is there anything else you want to mention or talk about when it comes to Irish storytelling? Things that you remember.
Patrick
Like I say, I've forgotten so much in this day and age. I didn't. They didn't put as much as Deser did. He used to hang out with a lot of guys that were storytellers. Because he was in the inner city a lot. Going there after his girlfriends.
Elizabeth
OK.
Patrick
No, that's about all I know.
Elizabeth
Would you say that the practice of storytelling in Ireland is vastly different than it is here? In the United States.
Patrick
Yes, it is, and I hope they keep it going. I hope they keep that storytelling going, but it's fading.
Elizabeth
It's fading.
Patrick
There are very few villagers that tell those stories.
Elizabeth
Sure, yeah. So do you think that the storytelling? Well, besides it being dependent on word of mouth, it's also dependent on like the community, how close the community is?
Patrick
Not necessarily. Sometimes be just one person. Telling the stories. And the people there made their lifelong ambition to tell nothing but stories and they were brought in. They were welcomed everywhere because that have all these stories in their memory.
Elizabeth
OK, so there were people that literally, that's all they did?
Patrick
That's all they did. They go in the pub and fascinate everybody. Which story? God whose they wouldn't be there every night. But maybe on the weekends cold night, something like that.
Elizabeth
And they always had a different story or?
Patrick
They’d have one. And they’d made one up.
Elizabeth
OK, so part of it is is making it up as you go, OK. That's awesome.
Patrick
But they weren't bad. Those stories never hurt anybody.
Elizabeth
It wasn't like gossip.
Patrick
It wasnt, no. They weren't the kind of thing that hurt anybody. Anybody said they were talking about me. I'm gonna get that. Guy, you know. They didn’t want that kind of thing.
Elizabeth
What did most of the stories or folklore that you're still growing up did most of it focus on? I know you said darker things, but did anything you know? So nothing focused on like other people. In the area or like historical figures or anything like that?
Patrick
Once in a while, you'd have a. A big dark house place back in the woods or something? They would. People would make stories up about the place, make you scared. To go near it. You know, remember. My brothers and I think they used to deliver newspapers. And I had to go deliver for. Gordon one night. And that one has, I think, her name is Mrs. Hatchett. She lived way up in in the in the woods. It was a beautiful place. She had hockey rings, tennis courts. Everything were back for her house. Was was very scary. Yeah.
Elizabeth
Dark and creepy.
Patrick
And she was one of them. All women dressed in black all the time. And a head shawl on.
Elizabeth
That sounds like the woman in black. Like that creepy movie.
Patrick
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's exactly where they get that stuff from, yeah.
Elizabeth
Do you ever have any? Did you ever know anybody that said that they had, like encounters with like banshees or leprechauns or fairies?
Patrick
I had one that I thought was myself. Ohh, tell us about that. It's just. I was out on The Walking. I went out to another another part of the village, which wasn't too far, maybe from here to the top of the street. And they passed this guy standing in the corner. And when I went up the road a little further on, he never passed me or anything. But there he is, standing in the corner again.
Elizabeth
So he just kept showing up?
Patrick
And I got the hell out of there quick. I was only maybe 10-11. But that's funny. You you see things like that. Don't know how that happened or why it happened.
Elizabeth
Just kept appearing further, yeah.
Patrick
And there was a woman that used to come running through the village. They called her the white lady.
Elizabeth
That's interesting. Did Uncle Dez or Uncle Gordon ever have experiences with this?
Patrick
Oh, I'm sure they did. I'm sure they did. Gordon was around more and he told he tell more stories than I'd ever tell. Because he stayed there in the village all his life. And he steals that. Deser knows everybody that lived in there, Deser knows best. He knows the name of everybody that ever lived in that village.
Elizabeth
All right, that's awesome. Let me see if I have any more questions.
Patrick
Real quick, I hope they help you out.
Elizabeth
Well, they have. It's been wonderful and it's been a wonderful experience to talk to you about this, Grandpa. Ohh, how do you do you think that, I know I asked you about the arts and stuff, but do you think that combined all together? That music and dancing and poetry is all part of storytelling? Like they're not inseparable in Ireland, they're all part of the same?
Patrick
That's right, they are. They're all part of one. Not what would you call that group or. Who would you go on there. The poets. The musicians. Storytellers. They were all part of one group, artistic.
Elizabeth
Just artistic people?
Patrick
The artistic part of Ireland loved it. But sometimes when you're young. Like when I was there, you don't realize it. You don't realize you're in with that because. I can sit on the farm. We had these guys that looked their milking the cows and do know that yours. At night and on the fireplace, they'd be all playing their music. That would have been a great chance for me to learn something, but I never did. But I used to go listen to them. And they came out of the country, most of them, they come from deep, deep in the country.
Elizabeth
Where? Whereabouts? What do you mean deep in the country?
Patrick
Kerry and down in there. In different parts of the country, there was a lot of it. Daily spoken and not. Musicians, lot of Irish musicians and that. I love the music and you blame them.
Elizabeth
All right. Well, thank you for talking to me, Grandpa.
Grandma
It's been wonderful.
Patrick
You're welcome, honey. Look at all that.
Elizabeth
Yeah, they're still going, yeah.
Patrick
Are you recording everything I said?
Elizabeth
33 minutes of it. Thank you. Thank you, Grandpa. Love you.
Patrick
You're welcome, honey.
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